In their biweekly column for Xtra, Chosen Family’s Thomas and Tranna react to the biggest stories on the internet and beyond. A warning to readers: Parts of this discussion deal with substance use disorders, partner abuse, sexual violence and suicide.

After Framing Britney Spears, two other queer favourites, Demi Lovato and Tina Turner, are the latest stars to become the subjects of buzzy documentaries. You know how Netflix has a category called “movies with strong female leads”? Maybe we’ll need a similarly ridiculous label like “documentaries about music stars who went through hell.”

In 2018, at the age of 25, Demi Lovato survived an overdose after years of sobriety. Her survival is the subject of Dancing with the Devil, a four-part YouTube docuseries released to coincide with a new album of the same title. In Tina (available on HBO Max in the U.S. and Crave in Canada), Tina Turner, now 81, reminds us all why she’s simply the best in a moving account of her extraordinary life, including leaving a violent marriage to reclaim her name and autonomy in her 40s. It’s worth pointing out that Demi and Tina were both involved as producers in the making of their docs.

Watching both documentaries is a fascinating look into the different ways their respective generations relate to stardom, artistry and trauma. Tina is the embodiment of rock ‘n’ roll, while Demi is the epitome of social media-era superstardom. Join us as we discuss and debate the merits of each of doc, and whether or not the age of the great star is truly dead.

Tranna: I love that we’ve been getting so many brilliant, in-depth music documentaries lately—Britney, the Bee Gees, and now Demi and Tina. As a pop culture junkie, I think they are honestly my favourite thing to watch. While on the surface Demi and Tina’s docs could not be more different, at their core they are both about the treatment of trauma. And when you watch them back-to-back, these docs do actually speak to each other, in a kind of cross-generational discussion of fame, authenticity, mental health and how pop stars shape their narratives in the public eye. Let’s start with Demi’s doc.

Thomas: The reason I was curious about Demi’s doc was that I thoroughly enjoyed Paris Hilton’s YouTube doc, This is Paris, launched last year.

Tranna: Do the Paris and Demi docs have anything in common?

Thomas: I think they both feel a bit transactional and, in a sense, they were made to shape a narrative and mark a new chapter for their subjects. In Paris’ case, she’s centring her new role as an activist and her crusade to close the Utah school where she says she was abused. Other contemporary music stars have transformed access to their personal lives into internet spectacles and lucrative documentary deals (see: Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande), all of them cheapening the idea of an objective “documentary.” More traditional in its approach, Tina reminded me of Amy, the Amy Whinehouse doc, and Whitney. The main difference, obviously, is that Tina is still alive to tell her story.

Tranna: I have to admit that prior to watching Dancing with the Devil, I really wasn’t very familiar with Demi or her work. I don’t even think I could have picked Demi out of a lineup, so this doc was really my first experience of her. I was struck by how much of her story she was willing to share. While I applaud that, it’s hard to separate Demi’s doc from the musical comeback she’s trying to make. The film is titled Dancing with the Devil and her album is titled Dancing with the Devil… The Art of Starting Over. And, in a controversial move, Demi recreated her 2018 overdose in the video for a song which—wait for it—is also called “Dancing with the Devil.” I found the music video very difficult to watch; the idea of recreating your own overdose is a hard one for me to swallow, personally.

While watching Demi’s doc I was really distracted by my own questions as to why this documentary was made: Is it just about promoting her album? The executive producer of the doc is Scooter Braun, the notorious manager of Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande, and Taylor Swift’s nemesis. He is the industry’s master manipulator, and so that partnership makes me skeptical. Not skeptical of Demi’s authenticity or the truth she shares so candidly, but skeptical of Scooter’s marketing strategy—which feels exploitive. Watch that music video, that’s all I’ll say.

Thomas: It’s tricky for Demi, because mental health and sobriety were such a big part of her message, and it looked like she “failed” very publicly. She went through every sober person’s worst nightmare: A relapse. But add the toxicity of Hollywood and the media to the mix and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. I remember when I heard the news of her overdose, in 2018. I was so relieved she survived—it could easily have been a more tragic outcome. Watching the doc, we learn that they also found fentanyl in her body. It’s a stark reminder of the persistent epidemic that’s still happening now: The opioid crisis.

Tranna: I think we’re living in this very weird moment in time where people have become brands and many brands are built around a trauma narrative. Sharing our stories can be so powerful and healing; we can learn so much from each other’s experiences, and that’s why I love watching documentaries and reading memoirs so much. But there’s a line between sharing stories in the name of healing and uplifting each other, and trauma porn—“the commodification of pain and misfortune.” Here’s the reason why Dancing felt more like trauma porn to me than authentic storytelling: Demi recounts the minute-by-minute play of everything that went down the day she overdosed. She spares no detail, but there’s no real discussion about the underlying issues that lead to the overdose. She repeats that she was so miserable and unhappy, but she never says why. All she’s sharing is the morbidly salacious details of what happened to her, but none of the deeper stuff. So what is there to learn from Demi’s story, based on what she’s shared?

Thomas: I disagree! It made so much sense to me to see her mom, stepdad and sisters explain how Demi is able to hide the truth from others around her. I didn’t know that her father was an alcoholic who died alone—that must have been so traumatizing. Being a sucker for her emotional ballads like “Skyscraper,” “Sober” and “Anyone,” it all clicked for me—I understood what was behind her powerful performances. Recovering addicts, like myself, know that rigorous honesty is essential for long-term sobriety. She also shares that she was abused by her dealer on the night of the overdose and that her first sexual experience was non-consensual. And she recently came out as pansexual. These are bombshells!

Tranna: I’m not saying that she’s not sharing—I feel like bombshells are being dropped with very little discussion about the real emotions behind the events that lead to this moment in her life. I also suspect that has more to do with Scooter than Demi. I believe Demi wants to share her story in the name of helping fans who may be going through the same thing, but I’m sure her team doesn’t want us to know the full truth of the behind-the-scenes experiences that have made Demi so miserable. To me, it all comes back to that question of intention. Another reason I could not fully connect with this doc is the inner circle she’s surrounded by, who are featured in interviews. One of her friends is described as her “former sober companion”—what does that even mean? Was she Demi’s sponsor? And, of course, there’s Scooter. I felt like everyone featured in this doc could have been a character on Search Party—they’re all vacuous, L.A. narcissists and embody all of the worst traits of elder Gen Z and young millennials. Observing these cast of characters that surround her, I just felt like, “Demi, you’re in danger.” It’s the same way I feel about the people surrounding Britney.

“I felt like everyone featured in this doc could have been a character on Search Party—they’re all vacuous, L.A. narcissists.”

Thomas: Elder Gen Z! What a nightmare micro-generation. I gotta say, Demi’s millennial peers—Ariana Grande, Justin Bieber, Selena Gomez, Nick Jonas—just don’t have the star wattage of previous generations of entertainers. Sure, they’ve given us great bops (can’t wait to dance to Demi’s “Cool for the Summer” in a club), but they lack mystery. Maybe it has to do with how they see oversharing as a badge of honour. Which brings us to Tina Turner and her doc, Tina. In a way, Tina was really the first star to share her trauma so openly and publicly. The doc is built around the audio recording of an interview Tina gave to People magazine in 1981—this was before the mega success of “What’s Love Got To Do With It?,” when Tina was experiencing a lull in her career. It was the first time she publicly shared the devastating story of the physical and sexual abuse she suffered at that hands of her ex-husband, Ike Turner. And it was one of the first times a celebrity shared a story of trauma so honestly.

Tranna: It’s really interesting to see how much the culture around trauma, especially as it relates to the world of entertainment, has changed in the time between Tina and Demi. In 1986, Tina published her best-selling memoir, I, Tina, which details her life and experiences with Ike. The only reason Tina wrote it was because, in the wake of her mega success with the album Private Dancer, she kept being asked about Ike in interviews. She was so fed up of having to constantly relive that trauma and thought that by writing the book and telling the whole story, journalists would finally stop asking her about it. Much to her dismay, it actually had the opposite effect: The book only increased the media’s interest in the story, and it’s something that has followed her for her entire career.

Thomas: The archival footage of Tina that’s used in the film was probably the highlight for me. Seeing her work in the studio, making Private Dancer in London in the ’80s, really hit home for me. I felt strangely motivated to make big things happen for myself, even though I’ve officially entered my late 30s! It’s never too late!

Tranna: You’re still mid-30s, calm down. I was blown away by Tina—I watched it twice and will probably watch it a third time. I think what makes Tina so powerful is that Turner is unafraid of the truth. She’s not trying to put a spin on anything. And whether we’re talking about the older or newer generation of stars, real honesty in show business is a rarity. Madonna and Barbra Streisand could never tell their stories like Tina has because, like most stars, they are always trying to control and sell you a specific narrative that serves their agenda.

Thomas: You really think there’s no spin on Tina? That it’s not presenting a version of herself that she’s in control of? Also, given what happened with Britney, is it really such a bad thing to want to control your own narrative? Why does that feel inauthentic? Which is basically what you were saying about Demi.

Tranna: Slow down! You’re going to get the Lovatics to come after me! I was not calling Demi inauthentic—I was questioning the intention, given its connection to the album release and that music video. And, I admit, maybe I am too quick to blindly praise Tina. Her doc was produced by her husband, so yeah, its objectivity can be questioned. But Tina is just so awe-inspiring and powerful. Even though she lives in a castle in Switzerland, she still seems genuinely grounded. She’s been through hell and back and she knows that material things aren’t worth anything real, but that they can be enjoyed—and she has definitely earned that enjoyment.

Thomas: Tina’s story is one of the most inspiring in music, period. And at a time when violence against women is sadly going through the roof (one of many negative consequences of lockdowns), I’m sure hearing how Tina left Ike will inspire some to take action. But do you really not have even one critique of her doc?

Tranna: Maybe one. I wanted to hear more about Tina as a mother. In 2018, Tina’s son, Craig Turner, tragically took his own life. The documentary is dedicated to his memory. I’ve watched Tina speak about it in interviews and it seems like she wasn’t very present in his life. Even in Tina she says that her kids needed more from her than she was able to give; her extremely demanding career took priority. I wish the doc would have spent more time on that, so we could have seen more of Tina the person versus the rock ‘n’ roll monolith that she is.

Thomas: I think part of Tina’s inability to totally show up as mom is rooted in her own relationship with her mother, who abandoned her early in life. It’s heartbreaking to realize that stars like Demi, Tina and so many others have one thing in common: They were inadequately parented. While Lovato has a more conventional stage mom (who seems weirdly afraid of her own daughter), Turner’s family history is just devastating. A descendant of enslaved people, little Anna Mae Bullock (she wouldn’t be known as Tina Turner until 1960) picked cotton as a child, and her mother never seemed to love or support her. Oprah would say that people can’t give what they don’t have. And that’s why I have compassion for Demi: She clearly has talent as a singer and songwriter, but she is from a world that is so artificial that she can’t really tap into the kind of honesty needed to make great art.

Tranna: That’s a kind way to look at it, I like that. I need to accept that I’m never going to get what I need from today’s mainstream pop and rock stars. It’s hard to even call anyone a rock star when you look at Tina Turner. I can say without any doubt that Tina Turner is the greatest live performer of the last 100 years. I don’t think any other performer in history has ever thrown it down on stage the way she does. She gives every ounce of her being to the audience, and it is sublime to witness. I was lucky enough to see Tina on her farewell tour in 2008. She was 69 at the time and, I swear to you, she still had the most electrifying energy. I was in awe the entire time.

Thomas: Celine Dion definitely made “River Deep, Mountain High” such a big part of her show over the years because she wanted to channel some of Tina’s electricity. The song became a staple of her live act, especially during her Las Vegas years. But watching Tina perform the song, it’s so embarrassing for Celine!

Tranna: That cover is the worst! The last scene of Tina sees the star attending the opening night of Tina: The Tina Turner Musical, on Broadway. Tina is given a thunderous standing ovation as she enters the theatre. She’s brought on stage at curtain call and it is such an incredibly moving scene. It makes you feel the magnitude of Tina’s life and artistry. It makes you understand that this woman is a singular, larger-than-life phenomenon—although she doesn’t see herself that way. It’s essentially Tina’s final bow. She’s saying her goodbye to public life. It’s the conclusion to an extraordinary life, but what also made it so emotional for me is that it’s also the end of an era. The age of stars like Tina is over,. aAnd it really breaks my heart. It breaks my heart that we, as a culture, have settled for soulless entertainment that plays to our glossy fantasy of social media perfection. It is so fucking depressing.

Thomas: I’m more zen about it. I think artists like Tina Turner still exist, but the market doesn’t elevate them anymore, and in a way it’s okay. The industry is exploitative and unethical and we have to take responsibility for the part we play in celebrating the fakeness of it all. Most people choose to be fake because it’s easier to navigate the world that way.

Tranna: I think we need to stop glorifying the superficial. I love that Tina doesn’t wrap everything up in a neat bow. One of the last things Tina says in the doc is “maybe it was a good thing I met Ike—that I don’t know.” She’s asking herself if it’s all been worth it—if the success she achieved later in life was worth the trauma she suffered being married to Ike for 16 years. And she doesn’t know. That kind of honesty really moved me. It’s the kind of honesty we rarely see from stars anymore.

I want to leave you and everyone reading this with Tina’s performance of “Help!” The children need to know the power of Tina! Show me a pop star who can come close to this.