Pose, the groundbreaking FX series about New York’s ball culture and the AIDS crisis, may be ending, but it is not going quietly. At the premiere party for the third and final season last Thursday, trans activist, writer and one of the show’s executive producers and directors, the iconic Janet Mock, took the opportunity to share what was on her mind with a room full of network executives, cast and crew. While there is no video footage of the event, Page Six broke the story, reporting that Mock had taken the network and the show’s co-creator and executive producer, Ryan Murphy, to task for their mistreatment of the trans people working on the show, including herself. In a speech that’s been described both as empowering and “unhinged,” Mock spoke of issues of performative representation, virtue signaling and, most importantly, unequal pay.

The story was picked up by major outlets, like Vanity Fair, and quickly went viral. Many of the headlines were centred on Mock’s own infidelity that she disclosed in her speech—of course the media would focus on her confession that she slept with a crew member while dating cast member Angel Bismark Curiel, who plays Lil Papi Evangelista. But what Mock did was nothing short of incredible and important. Over the last few years, there has been so much discussion around minority representation in film and television, but so little about the structural changes that need to happen in the industry. Marginalized artists are taught to be docile and to accept opportunities with gratitude and without questions. Mock totally rocked the boat with her speech, shaking up some executives—Murphy among them—who, perhaps, have been sitting a little too comfortably, thinking representation is enough. Discomfort and disruption are the keys to change, and while Mock didn’t immediately comment on the events that transpired, her speech has opened the door to some very big questions: Is representation enough? How can real power be given to marginalized artists and creators? Can real change ever happen in an industry ruled by straight, cis, white people?

Tranna: I was shocked when I read about Janet Mock’s speech at Pose’s new season premiere party.

Thomas: I was shocked there was a party! Aren’t we in a pandemic? I guess Americans are getting vaxxed faster. Seriously, what were you shocked about?

Tranna: I wasn’t shocked by the things she brought to light—namely, Hollywood’s mistreatment of trans people and unequal pay—because those things are all too familiar; I was shocked that she actually spoke up. I think marginalized people working in entertainment are so scared to rock the boat when we are given an opportunity, because we know how rare those opportunities are and we don’t know if we’ll ever get another. So often, marginalized artists and creatives are deemed “difficult” to work with when they’re just standing up for themselves. I know that I am, personally, constantly working under the idea of scarcity, that there are so few spaces for me in this industry, I can’t afford to fuck anything up. I think many of us working in entertainment have dreamed of doing what Mock did: Tell the truth. Telling the truth about how marginalized people are used when it’s convenient and when they make the producers look good, but never supported in a way that will guarantee long-term, sustained success and equal access to opportunity and, of course, equal pay.

In her speech, Mock’s reported to have said: “It’s a show, but it means so much to everyone to ‘ensure that we enable Black and brown trans women to make it’ because that sounds good. It makes you comfortable to talk like that because then I don’t scare you into facing the fucking truth. You all have stomped on us.” I think what she’s getting at is that networks are willing to do the superficial work of producing a show and being able to say, “Look, we’ve made this show and given a platform to marginalized voices,” but they are not willing to do the work that would ensure real change. They are not willing to give any kind of real power to marginalized artists.

“She did this at a party, where people were having a good time and celebrating the show’s final season. We need a new word for ‘badass’.”

Thomas: One thing is for sure: News of the speech went viral last weekend, partly because queer Twitter loves a good Ryan Murphy takedown.

Tranna: I think James Corden should play Murphy in Feud: Ryan and Janet. Part of what makes the Pose premiere so intriguing is that we so rarely see someone in the industry call out the people in power so directly. She did this at a party, where people were having a good time and celebrating the show’s final season. We need a new word for “badass.”

Thomas: It’s not the first time Mock has spoken her mind so powerfully about how she has been treated by men. Mock had a run-in with Piers Morgan (eeewww) after a 2014 CNN interview because she felt he “sensationalized” her story. We know Mock is an inspiring figure, but it’s also important to remember that she has spoken up about important issues over the years. Murphy should have known that you don’t mess with Janet Mock!

Tranna: In her speech, Mock said that Pose is about speaking truth. It’s a show about the late 1980s/early ’90s New York ballroom scene and the peak of the AIDS crisis. It’s a show that is fundamentally about Black queer empowerment. But is that what the show meant for Murphy, the one queer person in Hollywood who seems to have as much power as cis hetero men? I suspect that for Ryan this show was an opportunity to virtue signal, to demonstrate his “wokeness.” I suspect that because, during her speech, Mock criticized Murphy for originally not having any trans women in the writer’s room. “Mock next complained about the quality of the material from male writers on the show’s first two episodes, then addressed Murphy, saying that ‘you brought … girls in to help you,’” reports Page Six. I think that’s very telling.

Thomas: That’s so wild. Imagine writing Pose without trans women! It shows how much work there left to do to elevate different voices. The association I make is with Sylvia Rivera’s speech at the 1973 Gay Pride rally in New York City. Rivera, who turned 18 the week after the Stonewall Uprising, was one of the early groundbreaking figures in the Gay Liberation movement. In 1973, she was filmed giving her “Y’all Better Quiet Down” speech to a mostly white audience who booed, then cheered her. The speech became queer canon and has been celebrated in recent years. Maybe Janet’s will become a pivotal moment!

“Sometimes when one of us succeeds, it means another one of us won’t get that chance—because the people with the power are white and cis and straight.”

Tranna: It feels like the industry is just looking for ways to cancel the few trans women who manage to break through: People on Twitter were trying to make a big deal about the age difference between Mock and her partner—he’s a 25-year-old man! He can make grown-up decisions for himself.

Another one of the interesting parts of the speech to me was Mock’s apology to Our Lady J, one of the producers, writers and a guest star on Pose. Our Lady J is also a trans woman. Mock allegedly said that she herself had tried to diminish Our Lady J in an attempt to make herself feel bigger. I think that goes back to what I was saying earlier about the idea of scarcity: It feels like there are so few spots available for queer creators in the industry that we are set up to be in competition with each other, instead of supporting each other the way we would like to. There’s always been this idea that when one of us succeeds, we all succeed, which is definitely true. But I think sometimes when one of us succeeds, it means another one of us won’t get that chance—because the people with the power are white and cis and straight. We’re still at a point where the changes in the industry are superficial. So where does that leave us? Do queer people continue to fight for a real place in Hollywood? Or do we need to build our own industry? Is that even possible?

Thomas: I sometimes think about that. We have to acknowledge that there has never been this much queer media, and I’m sure many shows were championed by straight executives. It’s important to remind straight folks and, yes, cis people like me, that we are “guests” in certain spaces. On Pose, cis folks are guests. On RuPaul’s Drag Race, straights are merely visitors—cue Anne Hathaway on season 13. At the Superbowl, queer folks are guests (we just show up for the half-time show anyways).

Speaking of guests, this weekend I watched the episode of The Oprah Conversation with Elliot Page, which came out last Friday. Recorded in separate studios (Page in Toronto and Oprah in Hawaii), the one-on-one sit down interview was Page’s first on-camera media appearance since coming out as transgender in December 2020 and becoming the first trans man on the cover of Time. While Page appeared nervous at first, it was so affirming to hear him tell us about his journey. At the beginning of the episode, Oprah mentioned that Page’s team asked her to watch Disclosure, the Sam Feder-directed documentary about trans representation in Hollywood.

Tranna: Seriously, everyone needs to watch Disclosure if they haven’t already. It is essential! Also, Oprah was in the documentary, criticized for the way she handled her 2003 interview with writer Jennifer Finney Boylan. Oprah literally sang out loud: “She has a vagina!” I wonder what went through Oprah’s mind when she saw herself in the doc doing that!

“Now, truth-seeking doesn’t have to be one thing: It can be both about opening up to Priestess Winfrey, or taking down your boss and executives at a work function.”

Thomas: Interestingly, Oprah quoted Janet Mock twice during the Page interview, referring to their 2014 conversation on Supersoul. Oprah said she relates to the “truth-seeking” part of the trans experience. Now, truth-seeking doesn’t have to be one thing: It can be both about opening up to Priestess Winfrey, or taking down your boss and executives at a work function.

I can’t help but imagine how violent the process must be for trans people to be interviewed by cis people, for a mostly cis audience, and always have to answer intrusive questions. Luckily, in addition to speaking to Oprah, Page also gave an interview to Thomas Page McBee, the trans journalist who wrote the powerful memoir Amateur, a reflection on masculinity. He notes that overnight, Elliott Page became the most famous trans man in the world.

Exceptionally well-meaning cis folks (like myself) who are accepting and want to appear as such can still cause harm. This is what we are learning through Mock’s speech: Even on a show that celebrates queer stories and the contributions of Black and brown trans women, she doesn’t feel that she and the rest of the cast have been treated fairly by the producers and network. Is the push for more diverse media representation worth it if it’s going to end up creating new forms of oppressions? To learn that there are problems even on Pose is disheartening.

Tranna: It really is, especially because Pose has been truly groundbreaking. Billy Porter became the first openly gay Black man to be nominated—and to win—the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series, and that was just in 2019. It took until then for that to finally happen. Pose also broke ground in making trans characters played by trans actors the leads of the show. Progress is slow and painful—and as an extremely impatient person, I constantly have to remind myself of that. Despite the anger and frustration that she was voicing, Mock did make it clear how much the show has done. She reportedly said: “I stand up taller in the world because of this show. I know that I matter because of this show. I have a voice because of this show.”

“Did Mock’s speech hurt future opportunities for marginalized people in Hollywood? Does it scare the people in power away from wanting to work with queer folks?”

Thomas: In Disclosure, Murphy is criticized, too, for the way Nip/Tuck character Ava Moore seeks gender-affirming surgery to trick heterosexual cis men into thinking she is a cis woman. Because they are so powerful in our culture, people like Oprah and Murphy have an oversized responsibility in making sure trans people feel safe telling their stories. Do you think Murphy will want to work with Mock again?

Tranna: I think if Murphy wants to prove himself to be the ally he likes to think he is, he needs to really listen to what Mock said. I don’t know enough about him to say, but I’m cynical by nature and can’t say I envision that happening. I think Mock—with her best-selling books and the work she did on Pose—has reached a point where she doesn’t need the industry to back her. She’s become her own enterprise. As she’s quoted as saying at the party: “I don’t need Hollywood, honey. You know why? Cuz I’m fucking free.” For those of us who don’t have that same freedom—for marginalized artists who are struggling to make a living and a name—we have to keep playing the game. We can’t tell the executives we’re working with to fuck off. Which leads me to wonder: Did Mock’s speech hurt future opportunities for marginalized people in Hollywood? Does it scare the people in power away from wanting to work with queer folks?

Thomas: I don’t think so. One powerful driver in the push for representation over the last 20 years has been money. From tourism to the wedding industry, queer people are good for business. As a community, we like to wrap ourselves in progressive politics, but the truth is also that Hollywood realized that white heteronormativity doesn’t sell as much as it used to. Capitalism will just eat everything, and unless we come up with something better, this is how things will be for the foreseeable future. When Mock mentioned that she “only” made $40,000 per episode for directing, she meant that the fight is also financial.

Tranna: I’m not going to lie: When she complained about only making $40,000 an episode, I had to bite my tongue a bit. I know the issue is equality—other directors make a lot more on other shows—but in this moment, when so many people are struggling to make ends meet, I don’t know if complaining about making $40K an episode was the best look.

Thomas: I disagree! The show could not have been made without a Black, transgender creator and there is a history of women and Black artists being paid less in Hollywood. The pressure to say something must have been immense. Considering Murphy’s deal with Netflix is worth $300 million, and that part of that deal was made off the back of “diverse” shows like Pose, I understand where the frustration comes from. While $40,000 is a lot of money to us, directing a single episode is probably weeks of work. What Mock was telling this room is “I know my worth.” And I suspect the white guys directing mediocre sci-fi series probably make more than that.

Tranna: You are right. I guess I don’t know my worth because I would do anything for $40,000, no questions asked! We talk so much about the power of representation, about how representation of marginalized people has gotten so much better over the last few years. But what does representation really accomplish when nothing is changing structurally, when all the power is still largely in the hands of straight, cis white people? Can we ever convince a straight white executive to fully understand? I think Mock is trying to tell the world that representation on its own is not enough. It is not enough to just put Black queer people in front of the camera.

Sadly, I worry that part of Mock’s powerful message was diminished by the report that, “an insider who has worked with Mock told Page Six that she seemed ‘emotionally unhinged’ and suggested her revelation about her relationship may have been the cause.” According to reports of the speech, she told her boyfriend, Pose actor Angel Bismark Curiel, that she had cheated on him. In front of an entire room full of cast, crew and network people she apparently said: “Angel, Angel. I’m not losing you. You hear me? You are fucking important to me. I don’t want to live in a house alone. I want you. You motherfucker. Right there. That’s who I want. I’m getting what’s mine.” I don’t think someone who’s fully in control of the moment would do something like that. But I hate that that became the headline instead of what she said about the industry’s treatment of trans artists.

Thomas: You’re right, that definitely complicates things. But our culture has this expectation that marginalized people should act grateful at all times and I’m over that! The media should be grateful to have them! And as a gay person who sometimes works with straight people (some are fine!), I can’t even imagine how psychologically tiring it would be to be the only trans person in a room. Luckily, that’s not the case on the set of Pose—but still! Our culture focuses so much on pleasing people and being the perfect minority that I appreciate how “imperfect” this whole moment is.

Tranna: There’s a part of me that wishes Mock would have been more strategic with the way she told her side of the story. Maybe it would have been better if she shared this on a popular podcast or talk show?

Thomas: You’re such a politician! I actually think you would be great at rocking the boat more, as a performer. I share the same fear as you and a lot of it comes from scarcity thinking. Queer people are cornered into thinking there won’t be enough resources, another job, a new person to love. It actually takes a lot of work to not give a fuck. Troublemakers get respect.

Tranna: I would love to shake shit up way more than I do, but I’m just not there yet. I’m still too insecure and terrified to do that. There’s this double-edged sword always hanging over the work of queer creators in show business: If you rock the boat too much and scare people, you won’t get work. But if you never shake things up, things will never change. So we basically have to choose our battles really carefully. And I think Mock is at a point, given her fame and status, where she can rock the boat. And I think it’s a responsibility that all queer people have: When you get that power, use that power!

Montreal-based comedians Thomas Leblanc and Tranna Wintour’s podcast Chosen Family streams on CBC, Apple and Google; new episodes drop every other Thursday.